Death Wish
Four elder millennials prepare for death.
Death Wish
4. Deathbed Rituals
In this episode the girls prepare for death by considering various deathbed rituals.
We recommend:
Caitlin: the Netflix TV series, Bojack Horseman, and the internet discourse around the death of the United Healthcare CEO
Kaylin: the Oct. 1, 2024 episode of the podcast Good on Paper to learn about organ donation
Kris: the FX TV series, Say Nothing, about The Troubles in Northern Ireland
Megan: the episode Grief is Like a Fingerprint on the podcast Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
We referenced:
Catholic Last Rites - Scripture Catholic
Islamic death rituals - The Art of Dying Well
Death and mourning - Practices in Buddhism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - Eduqas - BBC Bitesize
Give My Body to the Birds: The Practice of Sky Burial - Atlas Obscura
Frequently Asked Questions About Hospice Care | National Institute on Aging
Trigger Warning, this podcast discusses death in a lighthearted manner. If you or someone you know is dealing with loss, grief, or suicidal thoughts, help is available. Call the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at any time to speak to someone and get support. For confidential support available 24-7 for everyone in the United States, call 988.
SPEAKER_04:We will be exploring various aspects of life, loss, and death. I'm Megan, and I'm here at the Switch and Board studio in Washington, DC, with Caitlin, Chris, and Kaelin. And today we're going to be discussing deathbed rituals. But first, a segment we call death rattle. Anyone want to go first?
SPEAKER_01:My death rattle is so my mother's oldest sister, uh, who is 90 years old and 16 years older than my mom passed away a few weeks ago. And then this at the beginning of this week, Pedro's stepmom's father passed away. And so I've just been thinking about, I don't know, just we're in a stage of life where it's like the generation of elders is going to start all dying.
SPEAKER_00:Especially if that generation is 97. It's a little ahead of my elders.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. Just like just that being sad. And it also making, I mean, those are fairly old people, but so we're not necessarily the next generation of elders compared to that. But like all of a sudden, we're really the grown-ups in the room. And that has been terrifying.
SPEAKER_00:That's a yeah. Yeah, that's terrible.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, when I was home for Thanksgiving visiting my parents, my dad is about to turn 67, and he was reflecting that his dad died at the age of 69 and his mother at 71. So he was kind of like, hmm, that's very near to the age that I am about to be. Yeah. And he was just thinking about that. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm not ready for like grandparents are very different from parents. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So yeah, that's a lot for it to become like regularly scheduled programming times somebody in your family. Yeah. Moving on.
SPEAKER_04:That's true. Was that your death rattle, Kaelin, or did you want to add something else?
SPEAKER_05:Um, I have a different death rattle. A few years ago, I believe you, Megan, and I attended a talk by Tyler Cowan. We sure did. And I don't remember who his guest was whatsoever. Nope. But he is an economist and kind of public intellectual person who does a lot of interviews. So I think we were there to see whoever he was interviewing. But the thing that stuck with me from that talk was at the end when they were doing this QA, somebody asked Tyler, who, if you are not familiar with him, I believe he identifies as being on the spectrum and has a wide variety of interests and unusual ways of looking at things. So this person asked him, What do you think you're gonna regret on your deathbed? And he was like, Well, when you're on your deathbed, you're sick and you're confused. So you really shouldn't be putting stock in anything that I would say. Like my faculties will be at their weakest. Like, don't ask that guy. He'll say anything. And it really stuck with me because so much, and I don't know if you're gonna get into this in your am I stepping on your toes, Megan, in the main segment. But so much of like deathbed ritual and like somebody's last words and their final wish and all these things, it's like, well, that wasn't really their that person at their best, at their best necessarily. If they're on a deathbed, they're probably quite ill. So yeah, why do we put very much stock into what somebody's final words or regrets are? Yeah. And then it also made me think about kind of pop culture representations of dying wishes or like advice. Like you never regret how much time you spent with loved ones. You regret how much you worked. And it's like, well, I already regret it. My whole life's full of regret about that. Yeah. What dumbass has to die to figure that out? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's not really regret when it's coerced, but yeah, when you don't have a choice.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah. I guess that's what's on my mind is like, don't listen to the last words or don't listen to people when they're on their deathbed. Yeah. Yeah. They're not sending their best.
SPEAKER_01:Except for that person. Who is that? Who do they attribute that to? The person who had, I told you I was sick on their tombstone.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. I've never heard that one, but I don't know. You've never heard that one? No.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm like that. Those were that person's last words.
SPEAKER_00:So my death rattle this week is that I went back to that karaoke place again. And uh this time I soloed.
SPEAKER_01:Is this the third purpose?
SPEAKER_00:This is the second time I've been back there. The first time I did a group number that was horrific. Um, and it was more like I regretted annoying everyone with the horrible sounds, but at least it was a group effort. And it's like, okay, whatever, that was horrible. But this time we went on musical theater night, um, inadvertently, we didn't mean to. And I wanted to sing somewhere that's green from Little Shop of Horrors, which is a song I know very well and that I love. And at home, I sound really great singing. Um, I am not a soloist, never have been, never will be. I'm a choral singer, and I got so anxious, like I clammed right up, like I could barely screech out a sound. I sang the whole song. And there was a really nice gentleman in the front that was like, You go, girl, you got this, like you're fine. But when I walked off stage, it was like pitying and like looking away. No, and and like one girl one girl pitied me so much that she couldn't over. She's like, I'm so glad you sang a song from that musical because I love that musical and tried to like be nice in a way that was like, you wouldn't have spoken to me if I did well. And so I'm I'm fine. I mean, I wasn't fine, but I'm fine now. But every once in a while I have a moment where I'm just go like, oh. So um, that's my death rattle this week. It was horrifying. But good for you. You were pretty good. I really like that song. Yeah. I'll probably go back.
SPEAKER_04:I was gonna say I can't wait till our next recording and you tell us about your next visit.
SPEAKER_01:And you should invite us next time.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna do a duet with a friend at some point, and um it's all planned out, and uh, that will probably be a death rattle at some point, too. Great. We look forward to it.
SPEAKER_04:Um, all right, so to wrap up our death rattles, um mine is and I I can't quite figure out based on the content the exact purpose in my mother sending me this on Instagram, but she sent me some menopause content this week. And is it your age? I I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Like, but you haven't been discussing this recently.
SPEAKER_04:No. Does she think I'm about to like enter menopause? I mean, I guess I might be, but I don't need my mother to tell me that. Well, I mean, through an Instagram reel. I mean, this is how our mothers communicate now.
SPEAKER_00:Just get used to it. I don't love that. And you are supposed to talk to your female relatives about their experience with menopause because it's so little discussed in our community that you need to get from them like what their symptoms were, what the age of onset was. So that is helpful. I don't know that the Instagram reel was helpful.
SPEAKER_04:It's more the idea of someone putting me in the same context as menopause. Like I also want to be informed about menopause. I mean, I kind of wish that it was more like a, okay, I'm ready. And like you could flip a switch as opposed to like a gradual, like, when's it gonna happen? I don't know. I'm sweating now.
SPEAKER_00:Is this it? Right.
SPEAKER_04:So I wish it was more like that. But yeah, there's just a like, I'm happy to consume content about menopause because like you said, I think it's super important that women are talking about this. I just don't need myself at this point in my life to be lumped into menopausal category. Those old ladies.
SPEAKER_01:Is it like the feeling I have every time someone mams me?
SPEAKER_04:Probably similar. It's just like I'm like that's not how you think of yourself. I'm still 25, right? Like in so many ways. I'm like I'm a spring chicken. My uterus is not shutting down yet.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, it's not really serving any other purpose, but it's not shutting down yet. It's still open for business.
SPEAKER_01:It's keeping you warm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know about it. I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:I'm not a doctor. So it's not medical advice. That's been rattling around the old noggin this week. Also, on the other end of the spectrum, I'll just add this. I was talking to my grandmother last night, who was also in her 90s, and apparently my mother's sorry, mom, putting you on blast today, trying to get my grandmother to commit to either being buried or cremated. And my grandmother is like, used to be like 100%, I want to be buried, and now she's like, I don't know. So anyway, she's looking forward to that episode coming out because she's like, maybe that will inform my decision. Oh, good.
SPEAKER_02:So cool.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So I think my mom's like just doing that sandwich generation thing, you know, pushing death on the elderly, pushing menopause on the younger, and you know, this is where we ended up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Way to go pat. Way to go pat.
SPEAKER_04:All right. So now let's talk deathbed rituals. We will put some sources for this episode in the show notes. But to kind of start off with the big question that I think we're trying to talk about is why do we have rituals around dying? So if you had to say like one reason why, what would you what would you say? Fear?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean for comfort for the person who is dying and the person who is there with them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I think probably a lot of them are more to do with the the bereaved and the loved ones.
SPEAKER_00:Not so much.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, because it's we do need scripts for big life moments because they're challenging and you're overwhelmed. So I think that to have a script and have some things in place for people to follow can kind of put you in that autopilot mode that you need to be in to work through what is happening.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And like being able to take control of a moment before so much uncertainty. It's like we don't know anything after the person dies. Like this is the one moment we have before that.
SPEAKER_00:I thought so many rituals were tied in to people who like did think they know what happens next. And they had to perform these rituals in order to like guarantee that that could be.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, I guess by uncertainty, I mean like the range of beliefs, like either it being like oh, maybe it's nothingness or maybe that there is heaven or whatever. And so just like preparing for that, but not really picking the one that speaks to you the most.
SPEAKER_05:I bet even for people who feel they are certain while they're healthy and well, if they're on their deathbed, doubts must creep in. Like what what's gonna happen next? I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_05:You think yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Then what we're gonna do. I think everybody has doubts. Yeah. I don't.
SPEAKER_01:But I think, but you s but and I don't know. I mean, I think you're a pretty consistent human, but I think most people like that can all change, right? As you're dying and your brain is a lot of synapses are firing, right?
SPEAKER_05:Or not right.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and I think I mean we'll get into this a little bit more later on, but I think yes, doubts play into it, but then for some people there's also like intense moments of clarity and wanting to get their affairs in order and whatever that whatever that means to them. Um as they feel like the clock like running down.
SPEAKER_00:Or like the ever-elusive closure, which I'm pretty sure doesn't exist, but that constant attempt to achieve it. Yeah. Goodbye. Play a role.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you don't have to worry about that because you've already confessed your karaoke. Um my sins doing to what's going on. That was the only one.
SPEAKER_01:The only sin.
SPEAKER_04:All right, and so then one more question before we get into um my uh lecture. Have any of you ever been at a deathbed? And what was that experience like if you were? I have not.
SPEAKER_05:No. No, I remember visiting my grandmother in the hospital when she was very ill, and it kind of seemed like it was going that direction, and but it wasn't like at the moment that it was happening. It might have been like a few weeks later.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Have you had that experience, Megan? My grandfather was in hospice, and I was there again, not like at the exact moment of his death, but like a lot in the buildup to it. Um, and I think just a couple hours before he actually died. Um, my great grandmother, I was at I visited her in the hospital the night that she died, like got on a plane, drove to the middle of nowhere, Maine, to try to get there in time. Those are my two. All right, so I was gonna start off with like some of the universal themes around deathbed rituals before tackling some of the like major religious perspectives on it. And then we will dive into some secular approaches and focus a little bit more on like Western traditions, since that's what we're probably the most familiar with and most likely to encounter. And then we'll I've got some weird and wonderful ones for you. So we got we got we got a packed agenda tonight. All right, so in terms of some universal themes, first big one is this is often seen as a time of spiritual transition. So whether you are like actually like practicing a religion or not, it's still like a profound journey at the end of your life. And so if you are religious, there are practices that inform what you're gonna do. Um and if you're not, there's still like cultural practices that are gonna impact the way that you approach your deathbed. There's opportunities for community and connection. So as I can't remember who said, but maybe it was Chris. But yeah, it's bringing people together to comfort each other, to comfort and provide support for the person who's dying. And then also, I think as Kaylin was saying, just like the ritual around it is a form of script. So providing people with things to do, ways to to act so that they're not just like floundering. Floundering around. There's psychological closure. So this is this is where it comes in. Like we're addressing the needs of this person who's dying. So what um, how do they want to be comforted? Like what do they, what do they need to have a so-called like good death? Is it pain management? Is it confession and maintaining dignity? So a lot of these rituals are around like maintaining the dignity of the dying person. And so we'll talk about a large lot of religions where it's like this person, the person's not meant to die alone, right? Like they're meant to be taken care of, whether that's by medical professionals or family, but that their death is not a sad, lonely thing, really. And then there's this sort of transformation narrative that pops up like all over the place, different cultures, different regions, different religions. But the idea of death as a transition and not an ending, however you however you want to interpret that, right? So whether that's a religious idea of um the afterlife or the idea that your body and its components break down and go back into nature and like, you know, at a molecular level, that kind of thing. It's looking for meaning in this final stage. There's the psychological aspect of it. So people are reviewing their life, they're trying to find meaning and suffering in some way. And then there's also always relational, uh, so the family dynamics, telling stories and memories and sharing those things, but also an element of like transferring wisdom. So it's their last chance to like pass down whatever, whatever stories, whatever wisdom that they have to the generations they'll be left behind. And then where you do tend to see like the biggest differences are in the societal framework. So if you're thinking about communal societies versus individualistic societies, and those have obviously still evolved over time, but there are probably some of the biggest differences in terms of who's involved at the deathbed, uh, what that what happens upon death, and who basically a lot with like who is involved and and who gets to grieve, really. So we'll we'll talk about more of that in a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:Who owns grief? You see that come up a lot, like when there's a celebrity who dies, and then people post on their social media pictures of them with that celebrity, and then there's always backlash, like you don't own that grief kind of conversation. I always think that's really interesting. Like who owns the grief and who gets to memorialize someone. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And I don't know if like you see in individualistic societies, which seems to be more of a response to the way that we live our lives now, right? Where it's like you have a really strong nuclear family, you maybe you live far away from your extended family, there's no intergenerational living. So some of it is just like the constraints around like how our lives are structured versus like cultures where it's still more common for people to live together with multiple generations in one house or maybe don't have the access to the medical care, like the formalized medical care system. Right. All right. So I was gonna dive into some religious perspectives. Does anybody know anything about Buddhism? A few things here or there.
SPEAKER_01:Sure. I mean not about the deathbed rituals. Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. So it's probably not that different from maybe some of the things that you have already heard. There's an emphasis on helping the person who's dying achieve a calmness. And a clarity. What's the word? I'm blanking on it right now. But there's the nirvana. Yeah, but the the concept of um is it non-permanence or like non-attachment. Attachment. Non-attachment. Yeah. And so you're trying to keep them calm through chanting of sutras, maybe guided meditation. You that can be either with like a dedicated Buddhist monk or it could be a family member or a friend. They're not as prescriptive about that. But the idea is that you're just trying to set them up for that, what comes next, right? So that idea that you're not attached to your body, you're gonna leave that body behind, your your spirit's gonna go on. You're just gonna release. Yes. So next up is Hinduism. Similarly, you've got people gathering around the person who is dying. People are saying mantras and prayers. You may be familiar with um the sacred significance of the Ganges River, so they might want um to have some of the water from the Ganges. And there's a leaf, actually, a sacred leaf, I can't remember the name of it, but they'll stick it under their tongue as well. And so the goal of all of their deathbed rituals are to help the soul achieve moksha or like a the idea of a good rebirth, um, since they they do believe in in reincarnation. Christianity, I'm sure that we are somewhat familiar with them. I will say Protestants are boring. Catholics are much more fun in terms of deathbed rituals. The last rites, is that just a Catholic thing? Catholic, Lutheran?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, basically. Are you gonna talk about last rites? I am. Okay, great. Because I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_04:Uh I'll talk about like how last rites evolved in a little bit later. But so basically the last rites are done by a priest. You are anointed with holy oil. Oil, not water. Well, no, it says oil.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think it's oil. Christina, is it oil? I've never been at anyone's deathbed rights, but oil sounds right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I wonder what kind of oil they use. And do you just bless like your kitchen oil or like probably not, no?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_00:Olive oil canoly.
SPEAKER_05:In my church, evangelical church, there was holy oil, and it was like in its own little container, and I think the pastor had blessed it. So it probably was just a seed oil of any kind. Yeah. But that's it. But it had to go through, yeah, like a process of being blessed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:And I remember this kid in our youth group, he took the holy oil out of the podium and like put a drop in somebody's water. And nobody was that scandalized because in evangelical churches, like, we don't care that much about ritual in general. And we were all kind of like, that's really funny. You're playing with the holy oil.
SPEAKER_00:It is funny. I like it. Not to Catholics.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Catholics are much more serious about rituals.
SPEAKER_04:Much more serious. This oil ritual anointing has a fun, like official name. It's called Extreme Unction. Extreme. That unction is extreme. But doesn't it just go like on your form? I think so. I think they just do the like whatever. And do they have a regular unction?
SPEAKER_01:Great question. I don't know. Yeah, I've never had the regular unclean.
SPEAKER_04:What makes this extreme? It's extreme. It's like four loco, except for hoy holy oil. Excuse me, I have to perform an unction. Okay, so anoint with holy oil by a priest. Confession of sins is a big one for Catholics. Obviously, Catholics can confess, they're supposed to confess sins regularly, but like this is the last chance to like unburden your soul and make sure that your body, your body, your soul is prepared to ascend to heaven without like any pit stops and purgatory or anything like that.
SPEAKER_00:What are the risks of like say you know you get last rites on a Tuesday, but then you don't end up passing till the Friday and you commit some sins of like pride or whatever in between? Are you is that like a risk to your entry into heaven? Or like it like would people be seriously concerned about that, or would they be like, oh, well, they're probably pretty good.
SPEAKER_01:So my understanding, or at least the way I was raised in the Catholic Church, was you really have until your dining breath to be like, I confess all my sins, but I accept Jesus Christ as Lord or whatever, and like I'm so sorry for everything.
SPEAKER_05:So like it can really be a last minute call.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like so it doesn't matter if you already did the last rites, as long as you personally say those things.
SPEAKER_00:Oh then you're good. Oh yeah, or like think them real hard. Yeah, or think them real hard. Yeah. It's pretty easy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You just have to make sure to sneak it in before.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm sure Catholics are thinking about that.
SPEAKER_05:But if you're heavily medicated, as I imagine most people dying in modern contexts are, you know, that could really put a damper on your ability to confess yourself into heaven at the last moment.
SPEAKER_01:So you gotta make right before that. But it is also kind of the giant Catholic loophole of like you could have a whole life of uh things that are considered sinful, and as long as you like use those last 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_00:I know that you can confess your sins to a priest to absolve yourself. But are you saying that your whole life you could just be like thinking it real hard and not seeing a priest and you could still have a clean soul for passage to heaven? That's how Protestants do it.
SPEAKER_01:As long as yeah, it's like before you die.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but you I mean, I've never what if I'm a Catholic? I've never gone to church, but I'm confessing all the time in my head.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's fine.
SPEAKER_01:It's sort of like it's more the last confession that matters.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I mean like you don't yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because then you would also be like confessing to not having gone to confession. You know what I mean? Like it's like you have to use that last confession.
SPEAKER_05:You would add that to a list of things. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like sorry for being a bad Catholic and also save me right now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. The only thing not going to confession bars you from is getting communion.
SPEAKER_00:And that mattered, like what's the impact of that?
SPEAKER_01:You don't get to eat your wafer and drink your wine.
SPEAKER_00:But you could still go to heaven.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. As long as you at some point asked for forgiveness from God.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, they make it seem like such a big deal, but it doesn't seem that hard.
SPEAKER_01:No, big loophole. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean it is a loophole, but I do think one of the big, and again, this is like Wikipedia level religion, so please, you know, keep that in mind. But one of the big differences, and like in terms of like the split between Catholics and Protestants, one of the big things was Catholicism still needs the interpretation that like the clergy, the priests, the intermediary. The intermediary. Whereas like Protestants were like, no, we speak directly to God.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jesus is bay. Yeah. Also, like I'm not trying to undermine, you know, the rel rituals for Catholics. I do see that there's probably a benefit in going often and thinking about these things and setting your mind right and having a practice. I'm not trying to say that's not valuable personally. I'm just trying to like get the facts for entry to heaven.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Well, and I mean I think even if you're not there. No, I don't believe in that. I just want to know. But even if you're not Catholic, confession is something that like came up over and over again. Like the idea that you want to go to whatever the next thing is, right? Whatever that is, whatever you believe or don't believe, you just want it to not be weighing on you psychologically anymore. And the deathbed seems to be a time that just kind of like pulls it out of them. One public service announcement for everyone deathbed confessions. I mean, if you die, like obviously nothing's gonna happen to you. But normally if someone hears something from someone and then like goes to court and says, this person said this thing, that'd be hearsay and would not be admissible. Right, right, right. Deathbed confessions though are. So if you admit to something or like having seen something, like that can be admissible in court and they can they can use that.
SPEAKER_00:Even though these medicated ailing people might not be in their best place.
SPEAKER_04:Even though, and there are lots of examples of like false confessions.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I want to make stuff up. I want to make stuff. I want to tell my youngest sister I'm actually her mother.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great one. That's a good, really good. Love it. I'm gonna tell people. Who's gonna fact check? Nobody. Well, you know, maybe, but yeah. But they're younger than you, so they won't know better than you.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Likely my mom will already be dead. Yeah. Right. That'll be the dominant narrative. Or at least it'll plant a seed of doubt, and they'll be like, was she our mom?
SPEAKER_01:You messed that up though, because now it's on record that you're you gotta keep the next one. We're gonna edit this out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But just because she said she's gonna confess it doesn't mean it's not true.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'm just biding my time for this legitimate confession. Extremely legitimate.
SPEAKER_04:I'd love that. We might do some extreme unction before it just to make sure it like counts. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
SPEAKER_05:Because what if you don't really have anything to confess? Like nothing's really coming to mind right now that I need to get off my chest. I don't think.
SPEAKER_00:I just want to cause.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I don't know about Protestants, but Catholics, it's like so you could be like talked bad about my siblings. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't think that's what we're really looking for in this situation.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, like I feel like guilt about that sometimes, like those small things too, but is that really deathbed confession worthy? It's like not gonna like You want something that's like a tabloid headline. You want choose to do it.
SPEAKER_00:You want something that's gonna rock the family to its core. Like, I can't imagine going to, you know, a loved one's deathbed and they're like, Caitlin, I really gotta tell you this. And my dad's haircut. And it was like one time I bullied my brother. It'd be like, literally, I don't care.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'd be bored.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Can you just die already?
SPEAKER_05:Die already.
SPEAKER_00:You're bad at this. Come up with something better.
SPEAKER_04:Tell me who you murdered. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Tell us who you murdered, Chris.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know. Maybe you need to murder someone just so you have a deathbed confession. That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_05:Live your life in such a way that you have a really solid deathbed confession. Holding so many secrets. Otherwise, don't do it.
SPEAKER_00:Otherwise, don't die.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. It's pointless. Um Judaism, they also have a confession ritual. I did not go too in deep for that, so don't ask any follow-up questions. They ask for forgiveness. There's a recitation of prayers. Uh a big thing for um in the Jewish face is to not leave the person who's dying alone. So it's a like constant cycle of family and friends um visiting them.
SPEAKER_01:Are they allowed to be left alone if they're like, hey, can you all leave me alone for a moment? Yeah. Good question.
SPEAKER_04:What if it's like a two-way, no, a one-way mirror and it's just people like looking at them or just like behind us.
SPEAKER_05:You're alone, but you're not alone. What about hospital policy? Does that violate that?
SPEAKER_00:There seems like there's a lot of allowances for faith tradition. Is there? Okay. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Well, there are allowances. So like when Oz was in the hospital, at least at Howard University Hospital, like for example, kids under, I want to say 13 weren't allowed up or something. Unless deathbed. Deathbed. So I do think that there are some loopholes or ways around that. And I do think, like, I mean, you probably can't have 10 people in the room, but can like one person sleep over? Maybe. But you know, but there are a lot of these religions, and again, it has to do more with being outside of Western capitalist society. Like they don't want to be in hospitals at the final for the final moments. They'd rather be at home. Yeah. So and there's also like I had to keep this kind of high level because with each of these religions, there's like different regions have different rituals, different, there's different sects that have different beliefs. And then finally, uh Islam. So again, we've got some recitation. So they recite the Shahada. Body should be faced towards Mecca, which is interesting now because I'm thinking about my father-in-law dying. I don't know that he was facing Mecca. But his family would come in and they would pray for him. He was not like super with it. Or they'd put a phone on that was just reciting the Quran over and over and over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_00:That's cute. When the body is lying down, which way is facing? Like what's facing? What does that mean? The feet, the head, like top of the thing. Like if they were to stand up like an old timey vampire, then you'd go by feet, right? I don't know. I asked my local Muslim these questions and he said, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, well. I would think top of your head, but would you?
SPEAKER_00:Because if you popped up like a vampire, that that would you wouldn't be facing the right way.
SPEAKER_01:But who's popping up like a vampire?
SPEAKER_04:No, because you don't want a lot of people based on the movies I watch. Well, I mean, like they I think it would be their feet towards me, because you wouldn't want their like the top of their head facing mecca, right? They pray to their own.
SPEAKER_05:Then they head stand toward me.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_05:But the bottom of the head.
SPEAKER_04:Or you stand them up in a vertical bed.
SPEAKER_01:Or you lay them. You prop them on their side and then like their face would actually be.
SPEAKER_00:There you go. Okay. Solved. Maybe that's it. I like the vertical bed thing better, but that is more practical. That's more practical.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so again, like like I said, so family's present, they're reciting the Quran. Once a person dies, there's a a quick wash, and they're gonna prep the body immediately after death. So those are like the major, the major religious ones. In terms of secular approaches, we've already started touching on this, but obviously I mean, and the weird thing is as I was reading this, is like how quickly let's just say the United States, for since this is where we are, like how quickly medical intervention has like evolved, right, and impacted our society. Like modern medicine really only came about like 100 years, right? Like a lot of this was h like post-industrialization, post-civil war, turn of the century, like 1900s, right? And like we've completely just changed our relationship to death. It's kind of wild.
SPEAKER_00:It is really wild, especially like like it's really I think the rampant urbanization that really solidified those changes. And that's like post-World War II. That's like yesterday.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it really, it's just so wild to think about how fast cultural, deep-seated cultural beliefs can go with the times. It's it's wild.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. No, I mean, like the funeral industry as we as we know it really did not arise until after World War II. Big funeral.
SPEAKER_00:Parlors. I mean, the word parlor is like the funeral parlors because the parlor, the front of the home, that's where you hold the body for visiting. And we don't even have parlors anymore. But that's a huge change that's happened in the last, you know, 80 years, I guess. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And it just like has kind of rippled through everything. So so we have modern medicine. We have the impact of like some of the things that have already come up where where you might have been at home before, like surrounded by family and loved ones. Now you are in a hospital, maybe hooked up to machines, limited visitors. So, but you know, there's a lot of work around pain management, comforting. Some places even offer like family counseling. Um, I'm gonna go into a little more detail about hospice in a little bit. But then we also in the modern time just have a lot more practical preparation that people are thinking about and doing. So, whereas like the fate of your soul may have been the your biggest worry way back when. Now it's like, okay, what are my final wishes? Do I have legal documents? Are my finances? Where are my passwords?
SPEAKER_00:Passwords is a big one. Yes. Legacy property.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the transfer property. People are thinking about their legacy, however, they want to think about that. And so I was just gonna do like a quick overview of the evolution of like Christianity because it did start much more simply. Whereas like early Christianity, you were focused on like your spiritual preparation. It was still communal, right? We're still like in the Middle East. And yes, there are prayers and less rights, but it's happening at home with your family. It doesn't require like a priest to do things for you. And the like community is there to support you throughout the process, whether that's food, comforting, um, just like emotional support. Starts becoming more formalized in medieval times. This is where we are introduced to extreme unction. The Catholic Church has become more powerful, richer, and so they're inserting themselves as intermediaries more. So you have more increased like clergy involvement. Confession begins to take on a more crucial role in your deathbed. And there's like an increase in people being afraid of like sudden death because if they haven't gone through these rituals, it won't be a good death for them. And then, you know, could have implications for their immortal soul and delayed.
SPEAKER_05:I feel like that's a reversal of how we are now. Like most people want a sudden death and not to be in a hospital for three weeks hooked up to machines and so medicated that you don't know what's going on and lonely and just uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah, that's interesting that sudden death used to be pressed.
SPEAKER_04:And now it's goals. Right. Like just like make it happen. I don't even want to know. I don't know if any of you remember this, but I have a vague recollection of the Council of Trent. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like you've heard you've heard those words. Well, Council of Trent apparently was like really important in standardizing the Catholic rituals. And that is also where, again, this final confession is gaining strength in terms of its impact on your salvation. So this is where all these trends came together. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:It was a council of trends.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I know, no.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I remember that. And so then, you know, then the next big shift happens in in our modern. Um, so we have this post-industrial trend of the rise of medical systems, hospitals, insurance companies, the funeral industry. And you're starting to, because of this, because dying is being taken out of the home, people are developing the psychological distance to death.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:They're not around it in any shape or form, right? They're not, they're not around it with their family or friends. They're not around it with animals because they're not on farms butchering for meat. Like they're just not, they're not involved with death. Like it doesn't really touch their lives in a direct way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You also see a rise of individual autonomy in terms of what the person who's dying wants. Like, what do they want to look like? What do they so yeah? So you're like, I don't want to be comforted. Like to get out of my room. Yeah. No, it's just like, it's just like everything American, right? Where it's like individual is best, right? And not so much about um the community as a whole. And the grief process becomes privatized. So you see like the people mourning and involved the deathbed like shrinking down to the nuclear family mostly, maybe some extended family, but it's really um really narrowed.
SPEAKER_00:And I think like demonstrations of grief as well. It's like, you know, you're not gonna wear black for a year and a day, you're not gonna cry out loud for three weeks. In fact, that's rude to be putting that on other people. Right. It's like keep your grief to yourself, please.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and how can you grieve when you have to be back at work in like 48 hours? Another reason why you should stop working. Yeah. This episode has been brought to you by bad bereavement policies. And so unsurprisingly, where we still see the strongest in terms of like community death rituals, that would be in non-Western cultures, um, often very rural places where there are still strong extended family networks, intergenerational living, and I mean, probably mostly through access, just like less medicalization of death, right? So people are still living and dying at home. And it's just much more it's a much more intimate process. Okay. Hospice. Anybody well, I'm just curious. What is your what is your idea of hospice? Like you hear that word, what what comes into your mind?
SPEAKER_05:Surrender. Like it's inevitable, and now our focus is on palliative care. Yeah, comfort and not rescue or reversal of the circumstances.
SPEAKER_00:There was a a young man in my community who is a couple years older than me that was diagnosed with cancer, like I don't know, 15 years ago or something. And he was a huge hospice uh guy. And he went into hospice, you know, as a young man, basically, but was also a huge advocate for it because he was relatively abled and did tons of advocacy about um what hospice is for. So I guess I take that perspective, which is about not necessarily religious, but it could be, but spiritual resolution and community and you know, just making people feel respected and loved and cared for as they go out with um, you know, the way they want to. That idea of dignity. Dignity, thank you. I was trying to remember that word.
SPEAKER_01:Uh people who have terminal something like that. There's no terminal something. So the name of your hospice center. Terminal with something. You got terminal something? I mean, uh it's interesting though, because I'm like trying to visualize it here in the US, and I just think like, but I keep thinking of Europe and being like this these beautiful like white rooms with like flowy curtains. Yeah, everything's painted white in a hospice. Don't argue with me. And you're like looking out on a lavender garden, and that sounds lovely. Yeah. I don't know, but I can't visualize that for the US. Here I'm like, oh, I don't know. You're crammed into a room. Chris, you need to make it so and then we can all come to your terminal something.
SPEAKER_00:Build a hospice in the lavender fields of Washington State.
SPEAKER_01:Of Washington State. Or Virginia. Virginia has lavender fields.
SPEAKER_04:It can be a multi-state um conglomerate.
SPEAKER_00:But only if they have lavender fields. Only if they have lavender. I mean only. They don't build our own lavender fields. We go where the lavender fields are. They have to be there.
SPEAKER_05:No AI-generated lavender fields too.
SPEAKER_01:If we build it, we will come. It has to already be built.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Well, that's beautiful, Chris. I love that. Hospice actually started in the 1960s, which is older than I realized. And of course, it was founded by a woman. Dame Cecily Saunders in the UK. And it was originally for terminal cancer patients, but over time it has evolved to be for terminal anything. Just like at the time it really represented this radical shift from medical cure, doing whatever you can, although it still feels like I feel like this isn't that long after like the Nick or something where they were like doing ridiculous things. But anyways, I digress. But going from quantity of medical intervention to quality of medical and not necessarily intervention, just like medical compassionate care. So really the focus then becomes on pain management, emotional support, the dignity of the dying. So it is patient-centered, but it's still holistic. So it's not necessarily just like, oh, here's my primary care doctor or my surgeon. It also will include nurses, aides, psychologists, death doulas. Death doulas, right? So it's there's just so many, they approach it from just like a many pronged approach. Um and it also is meant to include the family. So it's maybe trying to bring back some elements of what has been lost over uh over the last hundred years. I think one of the big misconceptions about hospice is that it's like a place people go to. But it doesn't have to be a place. Like, yes, you can be in hospice as an inpatient, like in a hospital or nursing home, but you can also be in hospice in your own home. And really, like the one uh requirement for hospice is that you have a terminal diagnosis to live for six months or less.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's short.
SPEAKER_04:But not but people think it's shorter. Like people are like, oh, it's only for like the last week or two of your life. I thought it was shorter. Really?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I did not.
SPEAKER_04:And you can extend it.
SPEAKER_00:Six months is not like a oh well you're still alive. Bonk on the head. You think of people who are given three months to live and they last two years. Like you stay in hospice, potentially that holds.
SPEAKER_01:I have a friend who's they have a parent who has a terminal condition, but it's like it's a degenerate.
SPEAKER_00:Terminal whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Terminal whatever. It's degenerative, and it's like they could live for another couple weeks. They could live for ten more years, but so they're just in hospice because it's like we don't know. They don't know. Right.
SPEAKER_05:And it's for people that can't live at home.
SPEAKER_04:Not necessarily. I mean, they might need like aid, right? But and there are ways to for that to be provided. But you can do hospice in at home. Like it's totally possible.
SPEAKER_00:I think in the case that I'm aware of, it was the level of care that he could and community that he could receive was gonna be higher in hospice. But like his mom could have taken care of him at home, but it's just more community. Do you want a professional? He wanted the more the he wanted to be with people who were going through something like him. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So I and so there are a couple of other like common misperceptions. So I think Kaylin, as you like touched on that like hosp hospice means giving up. Like it's not really giving up. It's just like a realistic assessment of where you're at and what the odds are. And do you want, do you want to have the best quality of life towards the end, or do you want to be stuck in a hospital with a bunch of machines running around you, beeping constantly, nurses checking your like blood pressure every couple hours?
SPEAKER_00:It's in hospital blankets.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, or like different, you know, roommates coming in and out. Like, do you want to be doing that or do you want a a more dignified way?
SPEAKER_05:Sounds nice. Maybe we should move in right now.
SPEAKER_04:I know, right?
SPEAKER_00:Can you bring a karaoke machine?
SPEAKER_01:You'll be like, I am terminal. I don't know how long much longer I'm gonna live. Maybe I'll live another 60 years, but I could die next week.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Well, hospice also does not mean accelerating death. Like great.
SPEAKER_04:It's not like they're like, all right, clock's ticking, you know, this is this is the final countdown at the end, like you're done. It's more it's managing pain. So they're not gonna stop treatment per se. I mean give massages. Probably. Like that's therapeutic, right?
SPEAKER_01:You get out of work.
SPEAKER_00:But you have to pay for the care. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I think in this country. Okay, I'll get to that in a second. There is something where, like, so with my grandfather, once he moved to hospice, they took his feeding tube out. Because that was a thing. Because he could have stayed on life support with a feeding tube and would have just existed. Existed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So who made that choice? It was a policy of the hospice. He made the choice, the family did.
SPEAKER_04:My grandmother made it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because he wasn't able to.
SPEAKER_04:He was not able to. He had fallen, uh he had slipped on some ice going down the stairs and had fallen and hit his head. So it was like very unexpected. And he'd spent a couple weeks, uh I want to say a couple weeks in the ICU um before the decision was made. Because he had like kind of come out of it a little bit, but like it just wasn't. And he had a he had a DNR. So my grandmother wanted to respect his wishes. Not saying it didn't cause some issues in the family, but you know, yeah, it always does. So, anyways, all about to say that like, yes, there's it's just still about like palliative care. Are you is this person like, are they in pain or are we mitigating their pain? Which they were. He just was not being sustained anymore. Yeah and so like, but it's not necessarily like, hey, hurry up. Like you gotta go. There is a perception that's very expensive, and I'm not saying that it isn't, but it is uh covered by most insurance and which is the one for older people? Medic Medicare. Medicare. Um Medicare will cover hospice as well. Now, again, we know what the healthcare system in this country is like. So definitely like read the fine print. But um it a lot of it should be covered. Okay. You want to hear some weird and wonderful ones? Always. Yes. Okay. So, and I say weird, but it's really just it's weird to us because it's just it's very different. Um, but these are all deeply meaningful cultural expressions of greed. Weird isn't a pejorative. Spirituality, human connection, they're just really interesting, unusual, and they're very much what you'll see throughout all of them is that they're very much tied to a location, I think, and a culture. Uh so the first one is the Tibetan sky burial.
SPEAKER_00:I love Tibetan sky burial. That's my favorite.
SPEAKER_04:It's I'm a big fan. I'm definitely gonna put a link to this one in the show notes. It's more gruesome than I want to go into detail about right now. I wouldn't hate to put that in my will, actually.
SPEAKER_05:Okay. I have no idea what it is. We get to elaborate.
SPEAKER_04:We get once she's dead, we get to like snap her in half and then carry up a mountain and leave her body for the birds to eat. Why do we have to snap her? Easier to transport. Okay. Can someone else transport her? You can hire someone, I don't care. Ecco. Okay. Yes. So basically a person dies and their body is taken up uh to the mountaintop and they're left there for vultures to consume.
SPEAKER_05:Put a bird on it.
SPEAKER_04:Put a bird on it. And this is seen as a final act of generosity. Yeah, yeah. And that you're the body is giving is it's releasing the bot it's releasing the soul from the body and it's nourishing other living creatures. And so if you believe in this like cycle of reincarnation, or actually Buddhists don't call it reincarnation, they call it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't remember. And also, I don't think it's just to reburn because I first learned of it from um one of our Mongolian Buddhist students, and they um had a tradition of doing it there. I don't think his family currently practiced it, but he informed me of it. So cool. Buddhism has its locations. Yes.
SPEAKER_04:That's the thing, especially with Buddhism, it sounds like there are there's no set way in the way that like Catholics have like these three steps. It's very much dependent upon like the location in which the Buddhism is practiced.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like he and maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel like he mentioned because Mongolia, uh I think he said like trees. We put it in the trees. Yeah, okay. That makes more sense to be. With Tibet it does. Yeah, of course, because that's all they've got there. Right. But and I don't picture Mongolia with a ton of trees either, but I I feel like I recall him saying we put the body in the trees.
SPEAKER_05:And because I was thinking to throw you in the Potomac.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no, no. That's not a sky burial, that's a water burial. Right. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04:So you don't want to be nibbled on by fish.
SPEAKER_00:Well, not in a poisoned waterway. Okay. Because I don't want to be like preserved by whatever formaldehyde is in these local waters. I don't know what's in there, it's not safe to swim.
SPEAKER_01:So that's fair. So birds. DC pigeons. Maybe the rats, actually.
SPEAKER_00:I am not talking about the city rats. They have enough. They are feasting. Although if that DC trash burial, you would have to photograph it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:That's we could start our own rituals since our society currently lacks deathbed rituals and burial rituals. Yeah. And I like the idea of throwing you in a dumpster in an alley and letting rats eat you.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I don't hate it. I'm just saying, like city ordinance on hygiene and blah blah blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Sure. Yeah, you have to do it for that for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Because is it desecration of a corpse if I write, please do this to my corpse.
SPEAKER_04:Please desecrate my corpse.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I'm saying? Like personally, I don't believe in desecration of my corpse. I don't really care what happens to this vessel once it's not animated anymore. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_05:Other than not being thrown in the potomac.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and like not for the sexual pleasure of some man. Just for a woman.
SPEAKER_01:There's got to be something between the hazardous waste. You'd have to make sure that the driver who's doing it has consented to it. Let's get a lawyer on the pod. Let's get a lawyer on the pod.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not going to traumatize someone else.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It has to be all consenting, permitted. You know, no one's saying break the law.
SPEAKER_02:Would you haunt us if we threw you in the Potomac? Absolutely. Maybe we should do it. Yeah, I want to hang out. I know.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna every time you hear Creed, it's me.
SPEAKER_05:We're gonna have to get a few locks of her beautiful blonde hair to do various types of witchcraft with.
SPEAKER_00:Also, why am I dying first?
SPEAKER_05:I don't know. You offered yourself up.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, fair enough. Maybe I am. Okay, next one. Vietnamese ghost money rituals. So this is where they burn paper replicas of money, cars, houses. And the idea is that they're providing deceased with resources in the afterlife.
SPEAKER_00:Now, this is something I encountered a lot in Hong Kong and China as well.
SPEAKER_04:Probably. A lot of these are like this is most commonly practiced here, but it's common, say, across Asia or something. You'll find it across Asia, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And you know, Chinese diaspora colonial culture. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It just really stresses me out when there's these rituals that allude to the fact that we'll still need things. Yeah. Money and food in the afterlife. I'm like, so we're still working. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I still need a car that's not provided to me. Yeah. Why am I driving? Anyway.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, that is a really good point. All right. Next is a Philippine hanging coffins.
SPEAKER_05:Sounds like the vertical bed that you mentioned earlier.
SPEAKER_04:Not quite. This is where they place the coffins on cliffsides. And the dead have often carved themselves before dying. Of course. I carved a cliffside. You mean like carved?
SPEAKER_03:You carved the coffin and then it's like rigged up. Are coffins carved?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, they're carved out of wood.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, that's not carving. You slice planks and then you nail the planks together. It's not like a canoe.
SPEAKER_05:Maybe it is there. I don't know. Maybe it is.
SPEAKER_00:I need to look that up.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, so you have a lock and you carve it out, and that's your coffin.
SPEAKER_00:But what what's the closure mechanism? And then you hang it out. Maybe there isn't.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Wait, so does it spend a certain amount of time on the cliff and after that you separate or it's there because they what they believe is that they're bringing the deceased closer to heaven. So they're putting them up on these cliffsides to make it easier for them.
SPEAKER_01:Are they running out of space?
SPEAKER_04:Or are they like maybe I think this is like one specific cliff culture.
SPEAKER_00:And some like historic practices might not be like widely currently sure.
SPEAKER_04:But yeah. That's cool. I like it. Okay. And then we've also got professional mourners. Yes. And so this It's like out-of-work actors. I mean, potentially, but this goes all the way back to like uh ancient Egypt, happening in China, Rome, and there are references to this in the Bible. It's still you can still find it in some Asian cultures today, actually. Uh, but they hire people to cry and express grief at the funerals. I do think in ancient Rome that there were often, I don't I don't know if they were plays or like pageants, but so they might actually have been like professional out-of-work actors. But it's this theatrical performance of grieving that amplifies the emotional atmosphere. But then in for some, in some ways, it's also a status symbol, right? Like, look at all these people who are so sad at me dying. Um, so it was a way to like show off your your wealth and power and significance. Put it in the wheel. I love it. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:But also everyone knows they're fakes, so wouldn't that you'd be like, who's that? Never met him before.
SPEAKER_00:But did you know everyone at the last funeral you were?
SPEAKER_05:Put it in the contract that they have to have like a plausible backstory as to how they met you. That's a good yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, the last, you know, memorial I went to was for a close family member, and I didn't know half the people there. Yeah, apparently I'm related to one.
SPEAKER_01:I'm like, if you are bent over, sobbing, and I'm like, what's your connection? Why are you so sad? I guess it goes back to that grief. Uh that's no, I like the backstory idea though. That would be helpful.
SPEAKER_00:And who owns grief?
SPEAKER_01:I do.
SPEAKER_00:He was the bank teller. I really like that person.
SPEAKER_04:And so to close out the weird and wonderful, I actually want to turn to the animal kingdom because it is not just humans that grieve and have rituals around dying. Elephants. Elephants. My favorite. They will go to places where a member of their um their herd has died to pay their respects. Um, they will cry. They will use like bush debris to cover the bodies, and then they often spend time just like touching the body and and guarding it from scavengers. So it is not just humans who have have complex emotions and rituals around around dying. And I just thought that that was beautiful.
SPEAKER_05:That is nice.
SPEAKER_04:That's so so Okay. So, I mean, this episode, this was just like the tip of the iceberg. There's so much to talk about. With this. But I've gone over like big level ideas and practices around death rituals. So my question for you is you have a death ritual menu in front of you. What are you choosing?
SPEAKER_00:Leave me alone. No, I I do think it's really interesting that across cultures and the animal kingdom, a lot of it's like be with the dead. And I just think that's it appears to be so universal. I'm curious to know, you know, please write us if you know of a culture where they prefer to die alone. But I've never heard of that. And um I don't know. I keep thinking about that. So mine is not on the menu that you've just presented. Ooh. I need a karaoke machine. That's a given. And everyone around is going to sing a set number of songs, and you know what those songs are. We do. One last breath. Of course. How apropos.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. So do we need to do that over and over again until you take your last breath? Like, is it something that we need to like come at once a day, like on the off chance that like today's the day?
SPEAKER_05:Well, I like the Judaism thing where like there's just a rotation. Like she is never alone and somebody is always singing Creed at her.
SPEAKER_00:Not just Creed. I mean, there's a set number of songs. It doesn't have to be that song doesn't have to time with Mind Death, but you know the songs. Sing the songs.
SPEAKER_01:But also like as a backup, like with the Quran, we leave it open on Spotify in case you need to hit the play button. Okay, I don't use Spotify, but yeah. Okay, Apple Music.
SPEAKER_05:I can't believe you confessed that in this public setting.
SPEAKER_00:I don't really get why it's bad to not use Spotify.
SPEAKER_05:So I'm pretty into this fake confession idea. Feeling like I want to play with people, make up some scandalous confessions. But yeah, I like the idea of not being alone, even if like maybe I want to be alone. And like maybe it's good for you to not be alone in those moments.
SPEAKER_04:You just gotta make sure it's the right people that you're like you need people who are okay being in a room and like not bothering you. It's like can we just watch another season of Love Island? Exactly and just chill.
SPEAKER_00:I just want to my last moments to be filled with joy. And I don't want them to be like tearful and hand holding. I just want them to be.
SPEAKER_05:No, just give me a moment. Let's just hang out.
SPEAKER_00:Give me some Love Island, you know, just something that's joy. Yeah. Like that.
SPEAKER_01:I would like to be surrounded by plats and cats. If my cats are not around, someone else's cats that are nice. Professional morning cats. Professional morning cats. Business idea. They have to be very cuddly. And yeah, people, I love keeping it light. And I as a Catholic, I completed the other rites, so I'd need to bring a priest in. Just like just cover the bases. Yeah, just in case. Finish the circle. I did the other stuff. He needs more stuff. I need some extra. And now that I know it's extreme, I want to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I did look up unction. And so there's other times one might be anointed with holy oil, like when someone becomes a priest or things like that. So those would be like regular unconscious.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's not extreme.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no. The extreme. Yeah, the deaf one is an extreme one.
SPEAKER_01:Becoming a priest should be an extreme.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's just a regular unction. It happens every day. Unlike death.
SPEAKER_04:Well, similarly to Chris, I ideally would pay a herd of elephants to be professional mourners. Yeah. Or really good. That's what I would like. Really good.
SPEAKER_01:But they would you be like curled in one of their trunk? Yeah, but they would cradle me in one of their trunks. I'll be weeping perfectly.
SPEAKER_00:Like in Dumbo when the mom holds. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:This elephant won't be in jail. Right? Yeah.
unknown:Behind bars.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. No, they are they are free. Living free, Chris. I will pay them. And consenting. Yes. Free and consenting. Although they don't normally mourn for non-elephants. You might have to spend some time with the elephant. But that's going to be paid.
SPEAKER_01:They are elephants you have raised.
SPEAKER_04:I'm going to need to start raising some elephants. There's got to be an app for that. Yeah. Business idea. Okay. And with that, we are going to turn to our final segment. This is a segment where we make some death-related culture recommendations. So, what book, music, movie, et cetera, related to death do you recommend to the audience?
SPEAKER_05:I am recommending a podcast episode. The podcast is called Good On Paper. It's an Atlantic podcast by Jerusalem Demsis, and it interrogates popular narratives. So the episode I'm recommending is from October 1st, 2024, called Would You Give Up Your Kidney for$50,000? And it's all about organ donation. And when I listened to it, I learned that you have to die in very specific circumstances for your organs to be donated. Basically, you have to die in a hospital. And you have to be young because I can't remember off the top of my head, but at least like under 70 or 65. Okay, so we would still qualify. If if we die before then. And the whole like, are you an organ donor or not on your license doesn't come into play unless they cannot reach your next of kin. So the majority of people who believe they've opted into organ donation actually don't end up donating their organs because you might not die in a hospital. Most people actually still do die at home. They said, I don't know. I didn't look up the statistics. Most people die after the age cutoff. And usually somebody in your family is there to be like, no, don't take their organs. That's my beloved dead person that I'm obsessed with. Imagine.
SPEAKER_02:So the family can counteract that?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Apparently it's they ask the next of kin, and then they only look at your license if they can't find that person.
SPEAKER_00:That's ridiculous. Let your next of kin know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So it was just interesting to think about, and I thought kind of connected to this idea of deathbed that like even in those moments, your stated wishes on a legal document don't really are unlikely to come into play. Yeah. I wonder if you could tattoo it on yourself.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think that they're gonna read your tattoos upon death.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think that's the system is you ask the next of kin what their preferences are.
SPEAKER_00:And like you as a dying person are sort of like And this is why we are having these conversations, so we all know to let our next of kin know not to supersede our wishes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Don't need my eyeballs.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, it's still I it's still likely to become like a even if you like expressly write it down, it's still likely to cause friction in a family, unfortunately. Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. So check that um episode out. It was really interesting.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, cool.
unknown:Cool.
SPEAKER_05:And what was that again? It was good on paper, is the podcast. And the specific episode is called Would You Give Up Your Kidney for$50,000. Nice. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Um, a couple things. Uh, one, watch Bojack Horseman, a show that's been off the air for many, many years, but it covers death in a lot of different forms and the way people grieve in a lot of different forms, and it's extremely pertinent and an amazing television show. Number two, the CEO of my healthcare provider was murdered in cold blood this week. And that's your healthcare provider? Oh, yeah. And now, what I'm really loving is not his murder. I'm not advocating murder of people. I am advocating listening to the conversation, the discourse that's arisen, arose, arisen from it, because allegedly he was killed by someone who was disgruntled because UHC, what United Healthcare, denies the most amount of claims in America at 34%. And there's a lot of discourse around, well, you're denying life-saving care to people who then die because you denied them the care they needed to live. So is that not murder? And so I just really enjoying the discourse around that and the fact that some people are getting to learn about how predatory some of these healthcare systems can be. And so check out the internet about this topic. Right now, there's a lot going on, and it's really interesting.
SPEAKER_05:Caitlin with an endorsement of the internet.
SPEAKER_00:Have you heard of it? It's the World Wide Web.
SPEAKER_01:Mine is Say Nothing on Hulu. Great show. Yeah, Megan has watched. Which is about it's a fiction show based on a nonfiction book that's about the troubles in Ireland and sort of highlights a couple of folks who were in the participants of the IRA. But I think it's a good show about uh human beings who are sacrificed for political causes and what that means, and also folks' regrets not on their best deathbed, but like close to their deathbed. Um and like um ten feet away. They're like almost there. No, but actually like expressing regrets or like reconsiderations around what they've done, and also knowing that that these uh confessions will only come out after they have died is a large part of the show as well. But it's really good.
SPEAKER_04:The acting is fantastic, and the book it's based on is even better. Thank you, Chris. And my recommendation is also a podcast. It's Where Should We Begin with Esther Perrell. And her episode this last week was called Grief is Like a Fingerprint. And it it was a conversation between Esther and this woman who lost her her father, which was more expected, and then her younger sister by suicide, which was obviously not as expected. And it was this woman trying to un unpack the many layers of her grief and like the rifts in her family that resulted because of this, be the like her grief is just so complicated and she speaks about it so eloquently. And like finding that balance between making space for the many different ways people grieve that yes, you are totally entitled to grieve in the way that makes sense to you, but you need to provide the same grace to other people who are going to grieve differently. And it's just it's a really hard but really beautiful conversation. So I recommend checking that out.
SPEAKER_05:Say the name again.
SPEAKER_04:The podcast was Where Should We Begin with Esther Perell, and the episode was Grief is Like a Fingerprint. All right. Well, this has been Death Wish. Thank you for listening. Follow the Death Wish podcast and switch and board on Instagram for more content and to let us know what you think. Please rate, review, and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And don't forget, Death Wishes from all of us here at the pod. Death Wish Wish Wishes.